-S: The jewelry and the hats are, where I've kind of landed is that, and I feel this way after watching the Damien Hirst thing, and I feel this way after watching more artists, right? And after having a conversation with Chad this morning, I was like, what is the future of art, you know? Where is art actually challenging things? And I think, actually, fashion is sort of what art used to be in some ways. It's one aspect of it, of this, like, culturally relevant, everyone sees it, there are rules that can be broken, and people care if the rules are broken or not. You know, art doesn't have that anymore, is this okay that I'm talking to you like this? 

-M: Yeah. 

-S: So, I think where I'm seeing these pieces is, like, what's the point? What's the point of all these things? What's the point of the hats? What's the point of the jewelry? I kind of came down to, like, my, one of the things I care about is total freedom. And that requires me to…

 -M: Are you recording yourself? 

- S: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Total freedom. And that freedom is something that, like, there's, like, a series of rules that I create for myself. First of all, the items should always be, like, things that I like. And they should always be done in a way that I want to do them. And there shouldn't... If there's a limitation, it should be a limitation that allows for me to go deeper in the work. And if there's a limitation that stops me from exploring, then that limitation should be broken. And I think each item should just be an expression of what I like. It should be honest to me. And it should be something that I'm constantly exploring. Because the work is evolving. It's changing. It's not something that's static. 

But the hats and the jewelry are coming from two different angles. I'm talking about “Desire Objects”. I'm not talking about art. I'm not talking about luxury. I'm talking about something in between that. Which is like the sort of... Like the treasure object. And that's just something that... For the hats, it's like taking something in my personal history of growing up in the suburbs, playing baseball, and turning it into an item that I feel like is…

- M: I think you just need to put the hats right now.

-S: Just the hats, not about the jewelry?

- M: The jewelry is not fully, like, we would send an email, something like the inquiries.

- S: Because the jewelry is taking a very familiar part and turning it into, like, a trophy. It's turning it into silver and gold. The hat's not doing that. The hat's taking something and modifying it.

-M: I think just talk about hats as an art object. That's it. Jewelry, if someone sends an inquiry, we will send something similar.

- S: It shouldn't be about the totality of the work, like the practice itself?

-M: Well, I just think... Why do you have to talk about 1 thing? Talk about the objects you created, Because they're all coming from the same place.

-S: Like, I think I'm just trying to find... Okay. I hear that. I can do that. I think I'm, like, very curious about how the work intersects with one another. Because they do, because they come from me. And I think that's, like, why a lot of artists don't go around explaining their work too much. Because, like, obviously they're connected to one another. They're both exploring something. Like, they're both provoking, in a sense. Like, yeah, you take a $10 hat, and you fuck it up, and you charge... You know, it's like, that's really a concept. That's as close to making a hat like a canvas as possible as just taking it as a blank. And you don't care how much a canvas costs. And then the act of modifying it is the value. That's the art. That's the concept. And that's where the value is. And the jewelry is sort of taking this thing that is super familiar, very cheap, overlooked, and sort of trashy. But by simply changing the materials, it's like sort of smuggling it into what might be seen as luxury, like something valuable to people. Because it's a little bit of a... They're both sort of satirical or ways of, like, sort of pointing out absurdity. Like, look, you can take a piece of... Like, it's like the golden toilet. You can take a piece of screw, you can turn it into... You can make it gold, and now it's a luxury object. That's, like, absurd. You just change the material, and then it changes the value of it. Right? It elevates it to an idea, to a concept. Then hat, you take it, and you mess it up. You destroy it, which is, like, paradoxical of, like, no, expensive new equals expensive. No, actually, like, art is the action of sort of destruction of a canvas in a way of, like, sort of soiling it with paint and whatever in a way that might look nice. But you're kind of destroying something to make for an idea. And, like, that's what hats are. They're kind of destruction. They're not distressed. Which distress is just this idea of, like, fake being fake worn. This is real. It's sort of like, no, it's an act of art because it's an act of destruction. It's an act of modification. It's an act of building upon the hat as a canvas. And those hats are, you know, while there are some that, like, are very simple and sort of more replicable, many of them are one-of-a-kind pieces because they sort of embrace a moment. And I'm going to use chat to, like, consolidate this, though. I think there's an idea in there somewhere. It's hard to. But do you understand how I'm struggling with it? This is where I'm at right now. And it's good. I'm glad I'm doing it. It's just now that my art brain is turned on and I'm understanding that, as you said, 1007 is the artwork in some ways. It is the thing that's challenging. It's where art lies. It's that intersection between art, commerce, sculpture, painting, clothing, collectibles, price, whatever it is. So I think just the hats are challenging, as sort of experiments. What if a hat were a canvas?

-M: I would say I always felt an urge to paint. There's always something that I wanted to express, and I never found a my canvas. That's why my works explored wood and everything, because there was something I wanted to express. But the materials for me are too simple. And this hat, my mom gave me. And it was so distressed that I would get comments about how dirty it is; it is the real story. I just feel like that is the real story. And I wanted to challenge that visuality, the way you said, now that whatever you make, I have to make an art object. Whatever you don't like, I have to make an art object; this is a true story for me. Yeah, why are you becoming this unrealistic? It’s too much talking; there's such a nice story behind it? You always struggled to paint, but you always wanted to paint. You always wanted some visual expression.

-S: Because painting felt like it didn't have enough meaning for me. It's like something else.

-M: Don't say big words, painting felt too simple. The materials felt like not challenging for me enough to interact. Whatever will go through your mind. And then I love the hat my mom gave. What is that hat?

-S: It's a Ralph Lauren hat.

-M: Ralph Lauren is American, obviously. My mom gave me this hat. It was so distressed. And I kept having comments that it looks dirty. It looks bad. It really made me to think, question, what if this was an art object? Would it be accepted as it is?

-S: How far can you take that?

-M: Would this be accepted as it is, or would there be a shift in how people consume it? So I decided to challenge it and felt connected and discovered inspiration for more intriguing canvas material. I'm just throwing everything there, but you have the story.

-S:Yeah, but it helps me to hear that because I have everything before that moment, right? You can see what I did. I have all the thoughts and everything. And that's hard to... My only concern is that it's too hat heavy. I think that on the hat page would be cool. But about Spencer Daly, it kind of limits me to thinking like, oh, I'm just a hat guy. I think that there has to be some... I think it could be shorter. I think that it could be longer on the hat thing with the story of the hat. I think the about thing can be shorter than about just like... Spencer is an American artist that looks to be free in his art. There's no rules. He does their constant experience.

-M: Just like a little story, how you shift the hated things to the art object or whatever it is, the internal wood materials to the good looking art object from the outside.

-S: Well, that's what I've always been... It's about like elevating...

- M: I just feel like you have the story...

-S: I mean, my uncles were truck drivers.

- M:That's the real story, Spence.

-S: But I'm telling you right now.

-M: Tell it, I was always connected to the internal, secret parts that people don't see as a visual satisfaction. I was always drawn to the beauty that is hidden, that is aged in something. And in my work, I want to challenge that, shift the perspective. What if this becomes an art object? Would you still look at it the same way?

-S: How can certain things be transformed into art objects or these objects of desire? For me, that's what I call them. Yeah.

-M: You can have one line of... This R Lauren hat from my mom shifted to the art object. Now, I use a hat as a canvas to transport ideas and whatever. That's one sentence about the hats. Jewelry was like... I did not want to wear what everyone was telling me to. There was not enough rebellion in pieces. What's the word? Rebelliousness? Rebelliousness in pieces. It was too empty for me. Just a cover beauty, but no meaning. So, I challenged the materials. I really wanted things to be outside of what is considered normal.

-S: Traditionally beautiful, maybe. Or like... Yeah. Accepted beauty.

-M: And that's it.

-S: And that's it. Easy.

-M: It is easy.

-S: It is easy. It's always easier to talk about someone else's work than yours, I think. I've always had this. I can talk about other people's work. And then they can't talk about theirs. So, it's helpful. Thank you.

-M: I think I have more of an insider thing. I just know your true stories. You don't have to... This is what makes me angry about a lot of things. That it was just made to be likable. But what is it true? Why I like JK so much. It's like grandmother's stuff. Like my grandma had pillows like that. Something like that personal becomes a beautiful object. Because the focus shifts. It's not just a casual object. Now it's focused on being like an art or whatever it is. I just like the story, to be honest. That's what people are wanting for, to connect. Be heart open a little bit.

And even if it's the most boring story. I went to 7-Eleven and I found this thing. That's the most boring story you've seen in art. But that is the thing. That is the truth. You don't want to bubble up all the stories around it

-S: Nothing I said is a lie. It's just focusing on different elements. There is indeed this large huge idea behind it. Obviously. But I hear what you're saying. I think it's helpful to identify that. Okay, I'll start there.